Wednesday, August 3, 2011

Question: Would you sell an organ to pay off your student loans?

Obviously, it's illegal to do so. There has been some discussion about this across the pond, and a reader posted it on one of AEM's Facebook pages.

So . . . would you sell an organ to pay of your student loans? If so, what would you be willing to sell?


Strelnikov said...

I would leave the country instead of that shit.

Texas Driving Record said...

I will never do that. I don't think we need to sell any of our organ instead repay the loan amount in an installment. Bank has no other option other than allowing we to do so.

JDpainterguy said...

What other body parts can a person sell, other than a kidney?

A cornea maybe? or an eye? Part of a Liver?

I think that if enough money were offered on the black market, a loving parent or spouse or family member or even a friend would do it, so as to released another from debt.

Steven S. Mellnick said...

I actually wrote a paper on the topic of selling organs to raise money. The crutch of my argument was that it was the individual's choice, and as long as everything was on the up and up, why wouldn't someone be allowed to do so?

Obviously if one was actually contemplating such a sale, one would have to go to a country that allowed for such things. (South Africa, Pacific Rim, China, etc.)

to JDpainter: Organs are harvested all the time from convicts in China. They recently passed a law to stop the 'organ transplant safaris' for non-citizens, but as in everything else, if you have enough money, you can find a match, and get what you need. The following can be bought/sold with regularity in the above countries: Kidney, Lung, portion of Liver, eye, bone marrow.

It has been a couple years since I did the original research, maybe it's toned down/ramped up.

To answer the question: I would seriously contemplate it, if I was in that dire of straits and the sell would cover everything. (and I had done a TON of research in the matter as well)

Anonymous said...

Yes, I would in a heartbeat. I've actually already been thinking about becoming an egg donor. I would also give up a kidney or part of my liver to anyone who would pay off my student loans.

One Who Survived said...

The very question is obscene, and I know that's exactly why Cryn posted it, in the same spirit as Jonathan Swift's "Modest Proposal" (oh go look it up!)

It also relates to the commonly accepted practice of abortion, treating Human bodies as fungible material things. Does someone say, "A fetus is just a piece of organic tissue?" The answer is: "SO ARE YOU!"

And the question also raises the spectre of slavery, slavery being treating Human bodies as fungible material "things" whose only value is utilitarian and measured by money.

On that note, a reprise of a song our (Cryn and my) friend JDPainter recently posted, "Molasses to Rum to Slaves":

One Who Survived said...

Further to my above comment, although I know Cryn knows and understands what I'm about to write, I also know that the majority of Americans of today (including or even ESPECIALLY "liberal" American "intellectuals") either do NOT know about this history, or else they've been brainwashed not to care:

"WHITE" people have NEVER been immune from enslavements of all kinds! Slavery is NOT a "RACIAL" issue!

Go (not you, Cryn, but I'm addressing your readers), go and read Engel's "Condition of the Working Class in England", 1844. And yes even though I'm a Catholic (like Cryn), I hold Engels and his friend Marx in high esteem, NOT for their atheism (their atheism was stupid, arrogant and untruthful), but for their truthful accounts of the depredations of Financiers upon the working class, and their righteous indignation of which Our Lord Jesus Christ would approve.

Here's a reminder of how "WHITE" working class people used to live in conditions barely above (and often below) those of "slaves" of their era. And this bit - based on a book by Ms Gaskell of my ancestral province circa 1850 - is personally close to my heart because it depicts the conditions of my forefathers, whose names I know through family traditions (just like many African-Americans know some of their slave ancestors' names through oral traditions)...

...and EVEN THOUGH my (English-American) family has been middle class, TRUE (upper) middle class for over a century, NONETHELESS I inherited an ethos from my Father and his Elders, always to remember that our family rose like a phoenix from the Hell of the factories in mid-19th-century England, and thus to remember that we are, de facto, descendants of White Slaves...

...and my Father and his old Uncle ALSO always reminded me, to be vigilant so that we will never become enslaved again.

Here ya go, ff to 2:00 et seq: ...

...and most "White" Americans of today are presently in peril of falling back into the same conditions.

C. Cryn Johannsen said...

@One Who Survived - there was a famous, African-American author who recently wrote a book about white slavery. I am trying to remember who it was. I heard them interviewed on NPR over a year ago.

One Who Survived said...

And to my above comment, I should add:

Part of the tragedy of my family back in circa 1830-1860 when we fell into acute poverty and de facto slavery like in that video clip at the mill, was that prior to around 1830 we - I mean my ancestors in Northern England - were actually rather well off.

Prior to circa 1830, my English ancestors were prosperous Yeoman farmers and/or artisans. Actually, through one of their lines - through one Yeoman line ("yeoman" means a non-aristocratic farmer who owns his own land) - I can trace my descent directly back to Richard Seymour the Duke of Somerset (the brother of Henry VIII's third wife Jane Seymour), and thereby back to King Edward III.

But how and why did they descend into acute poverty in circa 1830? Here's how:

1. Until around 1770, my ancestors owned some land, but then when the government "enclosed" the common pastures, the market forced my ancestors to sell their land and go to work as artisans in the city; and even then they still owned a BIT of land - a few acres in the suburbs of the city, where they continued to farm while they also worked as artisans (cordwainers, joiners, wheelwrights, all still manual crafts back then) but then as the years passed,

2. In circa 1830-1840, bloody MACHINES displaced and ruined all of those ancient artisan guilds. And the financiers had taken even more land from the artisans. Consequently,

3. In circa 1830-1870, my family were forced to become wage-slaves in factories, just like in that video clip. UNTIL,

4. Around 1870, the government of Britain legislated PUBLIC EDUCATION for EVERYONE! And although not all children were able to go to school (because most of them had to go to work), my great-grandfather WAS able (allowed by his Father) to stay in school until age 16! Which would be the equivalent of a PhD today. ;-)

And in sum, the points I want to make are:

1. My family rose like a phoenix from the depths of poverty in Victorian England, after 1870, because and ONLY BECAUSE OF FREE PUBLIC EDUCATION!

2. But then my Father and my Great-Uncles always reminded me, to remember our tragic (YET PROUD) family history, and to have EMPATHY for all those who struggle just like we used to struggle!

2.a And in light of all the above, bloody Ayn Rand and all of her acolytes can kiss my ass! I PERSONIFY how and why a family can rise up from poverty, and so I have the authority to say: "There is NO SUCH THING as a 'self-made-man; ALL prosperity and ALL civilisation IS COMMUNAL!"

In other words, as per John Donne, "NO MAN IS AN ISLAND!"

3. In closing - and Cryn, did I ever tell you I used to live in the cottage where Jim Croce spent his last years? - here's my answer to all arrogant callow youths who regard themselves as "strong" just because they've been temporarily lucky: ...

...and millions of abstract dollars on a screen, can't defend any weakling bully from a strong arm and a knife. All power relations in America are going into unpredictable flux and change now, and in the long run abstractions will be less powerful than brute force - the kind of brute force that the Ayn Randian "uebermenschen" have arrogantly presumed to own as a monopoly...

...but they forgot, that "Monopoly" is just an abstract game.

One Who Survived said...

And for good measure, regarding White American Slaves...

...(Cryn, this is my last post for tonight - well it's night here in the Earthly Paradise of Australia!)... I was saying, regaring White American Slaves: Uknown (I say SCANDALOUSLY unknown) to most American "intellectuals" of today, the fact is that something like ONE QUARTER TO ONE HALF OF THE "WHITE" AMERICANS OF 1776 were in fact the children or grandchildren of WHITE de facto slaves from the British Isles!

This is perhaps the second-most-shameful chapter in American history, virtually equal (and worse in some ways) to the history of enslavement of Africans (who were sold into slavery by other Africans.)

The ugly truth about Early America, is that around 30 to 50 percent of the "White" settlers of the American colonies were in fact slaves. And no I will NOT COUNTENANCE any "politically correct" COMPARISON of the sufferings of White slaves and Black slaves! The evil of slavery cannot be quantified, nor qualified by so-called "race".

And so, the MAJORITY of the soldiers in the Confederate Army, were in fact impoverished descendants of White slaves. And MOST of THEIR descendants STILL live in abject, desperate poverty today!

And so, CONTRA the sneers of Americas elites (of all "races") the REALITY of the heritage of most poor Southern "White" Americans, is THIS:

Meanwhile the elites of BOTH wings of America's ruling party (I agree with Gore Vidal who said America has one ruling party with two wings), meanwhile they and their propganda organs continue to pretend that "racsim" is at the root of America's social conflicts...

...but here is where I agree with Karl Marx. I agree with Karl Marx, that "race" (like "nation") is a false consciousness! And so, America's proprietors and their propagandsists are using "anti-racism" as a ploy to divide poor Whites from poor non-whites. "Divide and conquer!"

C. Cryn Johannsen said...

@One Who Survived - it's class warfare. That's what it is. You said it. You're preaching to the choir. Hail to Marx. He knew a thing or two about capitalism!

One Who Survived said...

Ah, but before I retire (in my cottage in Western Australia), now I've remembered a few more songs Cryn might enjoy and appreciate...

..regarding "White Trash" and today's Elite American Class's contempt for Poor White Southern Americans:

I recommend to Cryn, a WONDERFUL movie, "Song Catcher", a true story about an American (female) scholar of music, who in circa 1910 went to the Appalachians, and there she discovered that the people of the Appalachians had learned, through the generations, many English and Scottish ballads all the way back to the 1400s, whose melodies had GONE EXTINCT IN BRITAIN but had been preserved in the Appalachians in America! ;-) :-)

Two clips to share with you, Cryn:

1. The ORIGINAL melody of the ballad "Barbara Allen", which in Victorian times had a different melody, but some "White Trash" in the Appalachians still remembered what the melody was back in the 15th century!

2. And as I'm a native of the Southeast part of the USA, "Dixieland" including its borderlands, I also love this one:

Dona Furiosa said...

One Who Survived, You make some excellent points. However,there is a very important difference between African-American slavery and White de facto slavery. It's in the phrase "de facto": The enslavement of African-Americans was actually codified in law, and the only way out was either to run from it or to die. Plus, African-Americans were forced into slavery. On the other hand, white de facto slaves (such as indentured servants) did at least have some rights the African-American slaves didn't have, and could work or buy their way out of servitude. It was very, very difficult to do the latter, but some did it. Versions of these conditions exist today, mainly among immigrants who are forced to work off whatever price someone charged them for coming here.

I say this as someone who, although of blue-collar/lower middle class background, is as white as can be. And I am mindful of the parallels that exist between the indentured servitude of the past and the conditions of today's student loan debtors.

C. Cryn Johannsen said...

Excellent points, Dona! So glad you're on board with us.