tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3481083477379506990.post2453896822714189563..comments2023-10-30T05:28:11.795-04:00Comments on All Education Matters: Huffington Post: Obama Student Loan Policy Reaping $51 Billion Profit - This is not news . . .Cryn Johannsenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08452412213997621242noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3481083477379506990.post-17725271057822148002013-05-23T18:38:17.727-04:002013-05-23T18:38:17.727-04:00@3:08 I say again, the oversupply of certain types...@3:08 I say again, the oversupply of certain types of degrees is nothing new. I graduated from college 15 years ago. Back then, my liberal arts education was every bit as worthless as yours is today. You could have learned from the mistakes of people a little older than you and made better life choices, but you didn't.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3481083477379506990.post-65749621226737945222013-05-22T23:36:51.811-04:002013-05-22T23:36:51.811-04:00^ Sounds like most of your "empathy" is ...^ Sounds like most of your "empathy" is for yourself. So I don't see how you are any better than the guy who lives in that "mansion."<br /><br />If you want a full-time job that badly, why don't you join the military? <br /><br />[crickets]Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3481083477379506990.post-22577917902110862612013-05-22T15:11:48.639-04:002013-05-22T15:11:48.639-04:00@May 22 3:08 - poignantly stated. My I repost your...@May 22 3:08 - poignantly stated. My I repost your comments for a follow-up?Cryn Johannsenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08452412213997621242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3481083477379506990.post-10966747672607363182013-05-22T15:08:34.095-04:002013-05-22T15:08:34.095-04:0011:57,
I feel like I am banging my head against a...11:57,<br /><br />I feel like I am banging my head against a wall. I shouldn't have to spell this out. "Trying" does not end with earning a BA and I think you are well aware of that. I think it's safe to say that most kids in school these days are working and after graduation, are doing everything in their power to find jobs that pay well enough to live, eat and pay their loans. How is earning a BA not part of trying when you've been told your whole life that you cannot get a good job without a degree?<br /><br />There are graduates who are prostituting themselves because they can't make enough money to pay their debts. People are prostituting, hurting and dying. People are going homeless, childless, without cars and even meals, ALL because of this evil system. The irony is that they went to school, believing they were guaranteeing themselves that this would never happen.<br /><br />I don't know why it is so difficult for people to understand that THERE ARE NO EFFING LIVING-WAGE PAYING JOBS FOR GRADUATES. There just aren't. And I think it's sick and wrong to sit around and point fingers at the victims of this scam... the people living in their cars and going to bed hungry... rather than looking at the schools, banks, and government that devised this plan years ago, who are all living in mansions and driving fancy cars on the backs of the poor and hungry.<br /><br />I can't imagine living my life without compassion in my heart. Refusing to have empathy is a waste of a human soul.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3481083477379506990.post-34224445339101745732013-05-22T11:57:12.522-04:002013-05-22T11:57:12.522-04:00@ 3:46 "Again, why are we screwing the people...@ 3:46 "Again, why are we screwing the people who are actually TRYING in this country? I would think republicans would like to help people who are trying to not be on entitlement programs."<br /><br />I don't think pursuing a BA constitutes 'trying.' I would argue that our higher education system, as it existed until the 1980s, was an entitlement system. It used to be college was a place for people to hang out while they figured out what they wanted to do w/ their lives. That's not the deal we make w/ our young people today. Unfortunately, many students are still acting like it's 1963 and going to college just to give themselves something to do.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3481083477379506990.post-36009000051738454172013-05-22T03:46:38.414-04:002013-05-22T03:46:38.414-04:00I'd like to add that mom and dad grew up in a ...I'd like to add that mom and dad grew up in a different time when, adjusted for inflation, college tuition was several hundred times more affordable and grants were abundant. My father's entire education was funded by grants because even though he worked two jobs, he was low income and had two kids. Fast-forward to my generation. My parents thought, "we did it on our own, so can our kids!" Well, actually, they didn't so it on their own. states were still aubsidizing education costs back then and as i explained, my father received grants. that isn't to say that he didn't work hard, but you get my point. So they didn't save up for us or think to warn us since their educations were free. To add insult to injury, dad's degree was conferred during a time when good jobs were to be had so my "need" was calculated using his income.<br /><br />Again, why are we screwing the people who are actually TRYING in this country? I would think republicans would like to help people who are trying to not be on entitlement programs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3481083477379506990.post-90240339723815980242013-05-21T23:19:48.630-04:002013-05-21T23:19:48.630-04:00Because they didn't know to, as a result of th...Because they didn't know to, as a result of the financiers' parents working so hard to destroy the critical-thinking aspect of education a generation earlier. <br /><br />Alley-oop. High Arkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14723123626955733759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3481083477379506990.post-7888512959806539252013-05-21T14:58:25.957-04:002013-05-21T14:58:25.957-04:00@ 1:30 Why do you think so many young people were ...@ 1:30 Why do you think so many young people were so easily cheated by these supposed criminals? Why didn't mom and dad warn their children about such people?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3481083477379506990.post-67552310568334595032013-05-21T13:30:00.969-04:002013-05-21T13:30:00.969-04:0011:41, the financiers in this case were the ones w...11:41, the financiers in this case were the ones who created the incorrect perception of the value of the degrees. They claimed that the chest was full of gold. It's not a question of disagreement over the value of the gold, but about whether or not it was gold, empty air, fool's gold, or yellow-painted rocks. <br /><br />12:13, of course. The Democratic Party is much better at this kind of thing than are the bad cops. High Arkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14723123626955733759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3481083477379506990.post-68631436522925700212013-05-21T12:13:47.368-04:002013-05-21T12:13:47.368-04:00@1:38 When you talk about criminals who took advan...@1:38 When you talk about criminals who took advantage of student borrowers, to whom are you referring? Part of the reason so many young people go to college is because enlightened liberals like President Obama and Elizabeth Warren encouraged them to do so. Would you include either of them in the 'criminal' category?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3481083477379506990.post-59742644610198193082013-05-21T11:41:08.495-04:002013-05-21T11:41:08.495-04:00You simply don't understand anything about eco...You simply don't understand anything about economics. People always sell goods for more than they are worth (more than they are worth to the seller, that is). <br /><br />If the law degree turned out to be worth far MORE than the student paid for it, would the STUDENT be the "racketeer" and "robber?" And would you be in favor of "liberating" that surplus from the student (or from uninvolved taxpayers, actually) and "returning" it to the law school? <br /><br />You know, the law school? The party that got "robbed?" Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3481083477379506990.post-74355183804619648472013-05-21T01:38:48.795-04:002013-05-21T01:38:48.795-04:00(Thank you for saving that, Cryn. :))
9:45 Anony...(Thank you for saving that, Cryn. :))<br /><br />9:45 Anonymous, yes, they made a mistake. Was it their fault? Should they have known better? Yes, and no. With the benefit of hindsight, it's easy to see how a criminal took advantage of you. With an understanding of marketing, any prospective student "should have" been able to realize they were being gamed. <br /><br />Let's find fault with the perps, first. Once they've paid back the money and are cleaning up trash along the highway, we can discuss whether Joe Student wore Too Short A Skirt when he went to the club that night. <br /><br />Was their education intrinsically valuable anyway? Probably not, but they should have "education." Fixing the financial scams associated with what we now call education would be a big first step toward causing actual formal education to happen somewhere in America. High Arkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14723123626955733759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3481083477379506990.post-8507831438591397312013-05-20T21:53:42.610-04:002013-05-20T21:53:42.610-04:00@3:45 Just out of curiosity, HA, do you think rece...@3:45 Just out of curiosity, HA, do you think recent grads w/ student loans they can't pay made a mistake when they decided to go to college, or do you think they made the right decision to go to college but shouldn't have been charged as much for their degrees? Wow, that was a run on sentence.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3481083477379506990.post-56281109490629042682013-05-20T20:32:56.886-04:002013-05-20T20:32:56.886-04:00I mistakenly rejected this recent comment:
Anony...I mistakenly rejected this recent comment: <br /><br />Anonymous just wrote (5/20/2013) -<br /><br />"You are a fool. And a magical spending creature. LOL, we must keep, spoil, and nurture you like some exotic pet on whom our nation's very survival depends.<br /><br />You are also a fucking lunatic. "Racketeering," indeed. If you ever saw real racketeering take place, your head would probably explode Scanners-style."Cryn Johannsenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08452412213997621242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3481083477379506990.post-35874218883111981892013-05-20T15:45:39.332-04:002013-05-20T15:45:39.332-04:00It's probably not "bad faith," but i...It's probably not "bad faith," but it is a mistake to adopt the methods of the enemy. <br /><br />Cryn rightly sees a problem--the great wrongness and suffering caused by the theft. She sees this problem alongside another problem--the callous, ignorant indifference of most people. <br /><br />In an attempt to make more people aware of the problem, and to begin remedying the aftereffects of the situation, Cryn has chosen to focus on "economic benefits" rather than on the initial unfairness. She may or may not be correct about the economic benefits (she's more correct than you are, but it's almost a 51%/49% situation), but that question shouldn't matter at all in the context of fairness. <br /><br />What happened should be treated as racketeering, and the people behind it punished accordingly. Even if the "economic benefits" argument worked, and achieved some minor improvement in awareness and remedies, a failure to punish the perpetrators only further empowers future thugs. High Arkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14723123626955733759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3481083477379506990.post-72773388309930906622013-05-20T09:22:07.901-04:002013-05-20T09:22:07.901-04:00^ LOL, looks like you agree with me that Cryn'...^ LOL, looks like you agree with me that Cryn's appeal to economic utility is a bad-faith smokescreen.<br /><br />Obviously you refuse to defend the central claim of Cryn's post that - ***FAIRLY OR UNFAIRLY*** - forgiving student loans will somehow supercharge the economy with new spending. <br /><br />In fact, nobody here is defending that claim anymore, and Cryn's promised response is still absent.<br /><br />And now my work is done.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3481083477379506990.post-16581055147236330312013-05-20T04:29:34.803-04:002013-05-20T04:29:34.803-04:00Fairness is at the heart of this issue, Anonymous ...Fairness is at the heart of this issue, Anonymous 11:18, 7:56, 9:20, and 9:24. The reason it <i>is</i> an issue is because of "fairness." If these student debtors had completed their educations and been able to enter a workforce that in any way resembled the one they'd been offered in return for all the money and all the years of their lives, they would not be complaining about the debts; they would be paying them off and living good lives. <br /><br />Fairness, and some level of realistic trust, is what allows there to be economies. Without a sense of fairness, we must be always armed, vigilant, and un-trusting. We never borrow money from someone with whom we do not have familial connections and/or an intimate history. <br /><br />Fairness rules (some of which you could call "contract law," if you wanted to) provide a massive social savings by allowing people to trust that certain behavior--such as lying about empty boxes or hitting someone over the head to take their gold--will not be tolerated. <br /><br />In the absence of some level of fairness, people stop trusting. They stop investing. They stop buying, selling, trading, and even producing. <br /><br />We've gotten thousands of years into civilization, here, by many of us believing (however erroneously) in these rules of fairness. The stronger they are enforced, the healthier humans are, because they feel safer in their breeding, producing, and living. Without it, economies stagnate. High Arkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14723123626955733759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3481083477379506990.post-48673362322072498832013-05-19T21:24:56.577-04:002013-05-19T21:24:56.577-04:00^ You're begging the question, dude. I for one...^ You're begging the question, dude. I for one think there's a huge difference between mugging someone and selling him a law degree. <br /><br />You are the only person on this page talking about "fairness" and "justice" (though they blather about that elsewhere). If you re-read the main post, you will see that Cryn's bogus argument is based on pure economic utility. Which has been properly demolished, by the way.<br /><br />You're basically talking to yourself on the "fairness" topic.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3481083477379506990.post-85347770590271085612013-05-19T21:20:51.520-04:002013-05-19T21:20:51.520-04:00@5:23 I don't think the plight of today's ...@5:23 I don't think the plight of today's student debtors is analogous to someone who was sold an empty box that they had been misled to believe contained gold. In a narrow sense schools have delivered what they promised, bona fide degrees from accredited institutions. Those degrees just weren't worth as much in the job market as the borrowers had hoped. Perhaps some college administrators actively misled young people about the value of a degree, but mostly the student debt crisis has been driven by society's collective delusions regarding the value of higher education.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3481083477379506990.post-28072621513669453812013-05-19T21:17:52.146-04:002013-05-19T21:17:52.146-04:00^ Riiiight.
I'm pretty sure the government s...^ Riiiight. <br /><br />I'm pretty sure the government spends the money, rather than using it to "reduce the deficit." And even if you are right, the bondholders will spend/invest the money - MAYBE even on houses and cars!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3481083477379506990.post-80110112050155095282013-05-19T17:23:09.995-04:002013-05-19T17:23:09.995-04:00Anonymous 11:18/7:56,
The "hurdle" wou...Anonymous 11:18/7:56, <br /><br />The "hurdle" would be the one that is keeping you and Cryn from being in agreement. You both have essentially the same moral standards, and if you approached the "debt" issue from a different perspective, you might find yourself agreeing with her. Here's how the dialogue works: <br /><br />1) You agree that mugging someone for their money is a wrong that should be redressed; <br /><br />2) You agree that enforcing property laws with standards of agreed-upon fairness, such as "no mugging," allows there to be civilizations and economies; <br /><br />3) You agree that selling someone in the economic marketplace an empty box, promising that it is filled with gold, is a type of theft, and should be punished similarly to mugging. <br /><br />Once we're there, you've come to agree with some pretty basic contract law stuff. We then move into a discussion of whether or not there was deception involved in the loans. <br /><br />The second issue you've raised is "economic stimulation." I wasn't aware that I'd commented on that part of it before. Cryn certainly has, but I don't feel that she's correct in every instance. High Arkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14723123626955733759noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3481083477379506990.post-59024307868344836932013-05-19T12:47:39.377-04:002013-05-19T12:47:39.377-04:00@7:56 Most student loans are owned to the governme...@7:56 Most student loans are owned to the government. That means payment on those loans mostly go to pay the federal deficit. Reducing the deficit strengthens our economy in the long run, but doesn't create jobs in the short term the way people buying houses and cars does.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3481083477379506990.post-22155361213743556862013-05-18T19:56:19.729-04:002013-05-18T19:56:19.729-04:00^ What "hurdle?"
I simply stomped Cryn...^ What "hurdle?" <br /><br />I simply stomped Cryn's bullcrap "sweet, sweet magical spending creatures will supercharge the economy" premise into the ground and all the way down to China. <br /><br />Game, set and match. <br /><br />As to your (entirely irrelevant and unrelated) "analogy," (1) the deadbeats gave their money to the so-called "robber" voluntarily, which by itself defeats your claim that it was "robbery," and (2) the debtors want to take "their" money "back" from some uninvolved guy who's sitting in his house down the street, and permit the so-called "robber" (to whom they intentionally gave the money, again) keep the entire amount. <br /><br />A good deal for the student, and a phenomenal one for the schools. Not so great for that uninvolved guy sitting in the house down the street, though.<br /><br />Is this "hurdle" of yours underground or something? I think I stepped over it without even noticing.<br /><br />Now, if you're up to the challenge, maybe YOU would like to explain why an economy is amped up and strengthened when a JD debtor makes a "big-ticket purchase," but is damaged when the lender/taxpayer (whom Cryn wishes to rob) spends the exact same money on HIS house or car.<br /><br />Don't tell me what's "fair." Tell me how transferring $X-amount of money from taxpayer A to debtor B will "help" the economy - when the money is being spent/invested/lent out no matter WHO has it. And do show your work, hm?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3481083477379506990.post-64147892318447855292013-05-18T16:24:00.137-04:002013-05-18T16:24:00.137-04:00A quality college education should not cost $50,00...A quality college education should not cost $50,000/year. Cryn, keep fighting! You have my support!<br /><br />While I am a true believer in personal responsibility, I also believe that predatory lending is occurring. How can any 18 year old, especially one whose parents have not gone to college, really know what he/she is getting into when those loan documents are signed? <br /><br />We are all told growing up that college is the ticket out of poverty and the fancier the school, the better. Fancy schools are expensive schools.<br /><br />A lot of people are getting obscenely rich taking advantage of this widespread social norm.<br /><br />Thanks, Cryn, for your hard work. I am looking forward to reading your book.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3481083477379506990.post-39530428616129158412013-05-18T16:01:54.588-04:002013-05-18T16:01:54.588-04:00Dear 11:18 Anonymous, the rhetorical hurdle you...Dear 11:18 Anonymous, the rhetorical hurdle you're going to need to overcome will be the following situation: <br /><br />Susan walks down the street, carrying $100. John jumps out of a dark alley, clubs her over the head, and takes the $100 away. The police come and arrest John, take the $100 from him, and give it back to Susan. <br /><br />"Hey," protests John, "I <i>earned</i> that! Liberals!" <br /><br />The question for you is, did John earn the money? High Arkahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14723123626955733759noreply@blogger.com